Confused about website hosting?
There are so many options. Do I get VPS, Dedicated Servers, Cloud Servers, Shared Hosting? How much RAM or CPU cores do I need? Sit back and listen to this episode of Not Another Marketing Podcast where we’re joined by Daniel Foster from web hosting company 34sp.com.
We’re going to demystify website hosting in half an hour and talk about the features you need to speed up your website.
Transcript (edited for clarity)
Jon: I’m joined today by Daniel Foster, who’s the managing director of 34SP.com, which is a web hosting company based in Manchester. How are you Daniel? Thanks for joining me.
Daniel: Hello, my pleasure.
Jon: Tell me a little bit about 34SP and who you are and what you do?
Daniel: We started 18, just over 18 years ago now. A colleague and I, a friend at the time, before he was a colleague, saw a gap in the market, we started a few silly dot com ideas. Needed somewhere to host them. They all came to nothing. We thought, why don’t we do the hosting. We started that. We’ve expanded from there to offer some associated services, things like services for clients now, domain name registration and that sort of thing. That’s basically it in a nutshell. We’ve been doing that for 19 years. We’ve got, hopefully, some idea of what we’re doing.
Jon: You’ve seen the Internet change just a little bit?
Daniel: Oh, massively. We started in the year 2000, it was sort of taking off at that point but the likes of Facebook and Twitter and even Google to a smaller extent didn’t really exist. Things have changed, obviously, everyone uses the Internet every day now, but that certainly wasn’t the case when we started out.
Jon: We’re going to be chatting about website speed based on kind of the hosting side of it, which is where your expertise lies. I get a lot of questions when I’m out working about website speed, because website speed is a ranking signal with Google. They’ve said that, and they say that if your website’s really slow, it’ll probably be a space or two down the rankings and things like that. Can web hosting really make a difference in speed?
Daniel: Absolutely, it can. There are two factors that make a difference: the design of your website and how its developed will certainly affect matters, but the hosting is hugely important too. We obviously work hard to make sure sites that we host run nice and fast, and in conjunction with your designer, you can look after the other side of that too.
Jon: When anybody looks at a web hosting companies website, we see things like VPS, we’ve got Dedicated Servers, we’ve got website builders like WIX and all sorts of different things. We’ve got shared hosting, we’ve got all of this, and it’s like, oh, my day is– what do I do? I want to try and go through them quickly with you if you can. Can we start up right at the bottom, which I suppose is– I don’t know, it’s being rude I suppose, but the website builder, would that be right?
Daniel: It can be. A website builder can take the place of your designer, and it allows you to build a site yourself, but that website that you’ve built using the website builder, and we’re talking things like WIX, or Weebly, or Squarespace, the likes of those, that still has to be hosted. Some services like WIX or Squarespace will do that hosting for you as well. You’re in their hands as to the technology they’re going to put behind that hosting.
You can then use some others. We, for instance, offer a platform that uses Weebly, but then that’s hosted on our infrastructure, so we know how we’re putting the speed into that and making sure that it’s still running fast. You might think of them as bottom of the pile, and they’re certainly a very usable and simple approach to having a website, but they don’t necessarily dictate how the hosting itself is going to work.
Jon: The design is only as good as the person who is actually designing it in a way really?
Daniel: Absolutely. I mean, the website builders will give you beautiful templates to use. They’ll give you ideas, if you’re running a restaurant or a shop or if you’ve got a podcast, for all these options and you can pick from a template. Some of them have thousands of templates to choose from. Yes, they’re absolutely only as good as the templates that you’re going to get to the tool that you’re using. They won’t give you that professional touch that a designer will bring.
Jon: Would it be right in saying that you’re pretty much locked into the services when you do it? For example, if you had a WordPress website, you could just zip up your WordPress website in a zip file, give it to another hosting company, another web developer, and they could get on with it. If you’re with WIX or Squarespace or Weebly, or whoever it is, you’ve pretty much got to stay with that system. You can’t really move, can you?
Daniel: Yes. That’s a very good point. You are locked into the ecosystem of the provider that you use. WordPress is the perfect example. You’ve raised the right thing. That’s an open system, as you say, exactly you can transfer it between different hosts and different providers, and different designers. There’s a certain level of standardisation so that anyone’s going to be able to work on it and they’ll be able to move it freely between different providers.
Jon: A website builder is pretty quick. I mean, are they okay, are they all right?
Daniel: Yes. For some people they are the perfect solution, and they’re quick to use. You get this template, you just start typing in boxes. You drag an image here or there, you choose all the prints you want on the menu, and you can have a website up running pretty quickly. In terms of the speed the site will run, again, it really depends on the underlying infrastructure, but they’re certainly not– you couldn’t say, by large, that they’re going to be slow.
Jon: Then maybe a website builder is ideal for freelancers, for example, somebody who maybe doesn’t have a particularly large budget to get a web designer involved in building a new website?
Daniel: Definitely, subject to that person’s skill level and knowledge and experience. Something like WordPress, for instance, is perfectly reasonable for a freelancer to use. There are many beautiful templates. In fact, in WordPress they’re called themes that you can use on your site. Many people, myself included, will be very happy to help you get set up with a WordPress account and start with that, but it’s not going to be as simple to use as one of the better known site builders.
Jon: Let’s put website builder as kind of, okay for speed, good for speed and things like that, good for reliability and things, but you do tend to be locked in a little bit into that particular company’s model of building a website. Will that be right?
Daniel: That’s fair, yes.
Jon: Okay. Right. Let’s move on to the next one, the fun one. Shared hosting. This is the stuff which is £1.99 a month.
Daniel: Yes, that’s right. Or even less. Shared hosting is what our industry grew out of in. So the late ’90s, early 2000s, shared hosting was hosting. It was very much the only game in town. What it effectively means is a web host, someone like us, will configure a server to server web pages, and then allow a number of people to put their websites on that server. That number could range from 5 or 10 up to thousands of people.
You end up with the problem that if one person on that server gets busy, and you have no control over who else you’re sharing a server with, then that’s going to affect every site on that server, yours included. You might get lucky and you’re the one that’s using all the resources, at which point it becomes a cheap way of almost having a server to yourself, but there’s no guarantee of that at all.
Jon: I think when you’re spending, if you’re a business and you’re spending £1.99 a month or £2.50 a month on web hosting, then you probably spend more on your coffee from Starbucks each morning. You really do need to move on from that, don’t you think?
Daniel: Yes, that’s absolutely right. You wouldn’t think that spending £1.99 a month on your phone service or anything was suitable. Your website is effectively your shop front on the Internet, you wouldn’t think of only spending £1.99 on your rent to put your shop in front of the world for the month. It’s not realistic as a business, I would say, to try and get away with such a low cost solution.
Jon: Share hosting, in essence is kind of one big giant server, with hard drives, with lots of RAM, lots of CPU cores and all this stuff. It’s a big powerful computer, but you’ve got maybe 1,000 plus websites on it, all from people who have no idea who they are, what they’re doing, and you just basically cross your fingers, hope for the best.
Daniel: That’s exactly right.
Jon: Yes, okay. That’s why it’s cheap, I would imagine.
Daniel: Absolutely, because if you’ve got 1,000 people, which is a perfectly reasonable example, and they’re each paying £2 a month, that’s £2,000 a month for that server. The server might have cost £5,000. You can see why in the web host size, that makes a lot of sense.
Jon: The next step up, I suppose, is what we see, which is called a VPS. We see this all over web hosting companies, VPS, Virtual Private Server. Explain that, because it’s not quite a server, but it is a server. Explain what it is.
Daniel: It has some similarities with shared hosting. Again, the web host will buy a large, powerful server, and they will put a number of people on that server. That might be 10, it might be 100, but the way that it’s segregated is far more controlled. With shared hosting, everyone gets free reign of all the servers resources. As I say, one person taking up all those resources can affect everyone else.
With a VPS, they get– if there’s 10 people, they get a 1/10 of that servers resources specifically for them. They can use that to their heart’s content, but it’s not going to affect the other people using that server. The way that presents to the user is it looks to them as if they’ve got a whole server, it just happens to be 1/10 as powerful as the server that it’s actually hosted on.
Jon: The resources are limited. Do VPS’s tend to be quicker, tend to run quicker websites than, say, shared hosting?
Daniel: Yes, they can do. Again, it depends. If someone gets hit on the shared server, so long as nobody does, shared hosting is going to run perfectly well, but with the VPS, there’s that guarantee that your site is going to run at a 1/10 of that power which will be enough if the host has done the calculations correctly, and you’ve got that dedicated to yourself. There’s no worries that any one else is going to impact the service that you get.
Jon: With shared hosting, if the server, for example, has got, I don’t know, 16 gigabytes of RAM, one person could, in theory, use all 16 gigabytes of that, and chew it all up, and you’ve got nothing for your own website?
Daniel: That’s exactly right, whereas the same service split between 10 people as a VPS, you get 1.6 gig of RAM and that’s dedicated to you. So what other people are doing isn’t going to affect what you get.
Jon: Sure. Nobody can go above that 1.6 level thing.
Daniel: That’s right, yes.
Jon: Dedicated servers. Now, this is the big thing, isn’t it? This is where you have your own server. This is kind of cool. I remember back in the year 2000 or something, getting my first dedicated server. I was actually quite excited about it. It was pretty damn cool. Explain a little bit more. This is the ultimate thing, isn’t it? Dedicated server.
Daniel: It can be, absolutely. A dedicated server is a step up from VPS. Effectively, you almost become the web host. You have the whole server to yourself. It’s a physical machine that is yours. Nobody else can interfere with that, and what you do with it at that point is up to you. You can run it the same way you would run a VPS effectively as one big server serving just your website. You can split it up into several VPSs so that you could run, let’s say, 10 websites each on their own VPS.
If you’ve got 10 clients, each of those is going to run very well. Generally, because you’re getting the whole server to yourself, you get much more performance than you’ll get from a VPS because you’ve got the whole thing just dedicated to you.
Jon: I presume that you can install all your own software, all your own stuff, all your own things on that server and control it yourself so you can manage it?
Daniel: Absolutely. That’s common between VPSs and dedicated servers. You’re given what to you looks like just a server, and then it’s up to you to do what you want with that.
Jon: They’re usually pretty quick, aren’t they?
Daniel: Absolutely. What we said at the start, is that your designer could easily design website that’s going to run incredibly slowly, but assuming your designer’s done their job properly, your website will run nice and fast.
Jon: Is there any other type of hosting? We hear all about the cloud hosting and things like that like Amazon and Google’s got some and Microsoft’s got some and things like that. Is that any different to any of the types of hosts that we’ve talked about?
Daniel: It can be. It is the more modern way of doing things. Like you said, I’m exactly the same. Getting a dedicated server in 2000 or shortly afterwards was very much at that time the bee’s knees. That was really where it was at. Things have moved on a little bit, but the likes of Amazon and Google and Microsoft with AWS and Google computer engine, and Azure, effectively what they’re doing is running huge amounts of VPSs, but the way that people build applications to run on those has changed.
You don’t tend to just spin up a container or a VPS and run your website in it. You certainly can still do that, there’s nothing wrong with that. People can build websites in much more sophisticated ways now.
Jon: I suppose with the cloud servers, dedicated servers, VPS servers, for example, if you wanted to and you say you were running out of hard drive space, you could bring in some more hard drive space or you can bring in some more RAM and things like that?
Daniel: Yes. With something like a VPS or a cloud service, that’s very easy. That’s going to a control panel, move a slider or typing your number in, press and go, you might need to reboot the system but then it’s there. With a dedicated server, that could be much harder because it is a single physical server. It will involve downtime because your host is going to have to put more RAM in or physically put more discs in, whichever the upgrade is that you’ve asked for. If you’re already somewhere near capacity, it might even involve migrating to a new server that can handle your updated requirements.
Jon: Okay. Cool. Right. Website builder, you don’t really get any control over what’s going on but they tend to be pretty quick and you’re okay. If you’re a freelancer, that’s fine for you. Shared hosting, probably best to stay away from it for business critical stuff?
Jon: VPS, next one up, pretty quick, pretty decent, you get a lot of control, you can stick some more RAM in it when you want to and you can upgrade hard drives and things?
Daniel: Yes, absolutely.
Jon: A dedicated server, maybe a little bit old fashioned but you’ve got your own server so you can switch it on and switch it off and install new hard drives and software and do you what you want with it, right?
Daniel: That’s right.
Jon: Okay. What’s the fastest?
Daniel: That’s a tricky question. Anything that has its own server, so a VPS or a dedicated server or even a cloud instances they’re called. Those can all run on nice, fast hardware and you’re getting resources that are dedicated to you. That’s the crucial message is that you need things that are just set aside for you and not shared with anyone else. Obviously that’s what shared hosting does.
Jon: Let’s move on to hard drives. Now, I must admit I moved all my websites and servers and things about three or four years ago from spinning hard drives to a hosting platform that had SSD drives. Just doing that alone sped up the websites visibly, you could see. Am I right in saying that an SSD drive is actually much quicker than an old spinning hard drive?
Daniel: Absolutely. By a few orders of magnitude, they’re much, much faster.
Jon: What is an SSD drive?
Daniel: An SSD drive is essentially memory out of a computer. We have traditionally hard drives are just very slow, they’re spinning, they’ve got to read data off there. We have memory that’s much faster. It’s just on a chip, and then there are things inside the processor that are faster still. An SSD slightly blurs the line between an old spinning hard disk and memory. It has the persistence so if you switch it off it will keep the data, which is obviously a very good thing when you’ve written a website, but it’s got much more of the speed of memory.
There are no physically moving components, so they’re less prone to failure which is great. They use less power because they’re not having to spin the motor and keep this thing spinning at 10,000 RPM, 15,000 RPM, so they’re more efficient. They’re faster and they’re less prone to failure.
Jon: What types of hosting plan? When we look at things like the website builder, the shared hosting, the VPS, the dedicated server, what types of those hosting tend to have an SSD drive or can it be a mixture?
Daniel: It can absolutely be a mixture, but these days I think pretty much everything uses SSDs. As I say, partly for their efficiency and their reliability, they’re obviously favored by web host because you’re not having to pay for the power to run them. You’re not having to constantly replace failed ones. Generally, you see them everywhere these days.
Jon: It’s pretty standard now.
Daniel: Yes, pretty much. It used to be a bit of a differentiating factor. You can look for something with SSDs and know that that was going to be better. Frankly, if you see something that hasn’t got SSDs these days, it may be a bit of a warning that maybe someone’s not keeping up with the times so well.
Jon: So it’s worth talking to your web host, if you’re picking a web host or something, it’s worth turning around to them and saying, “Is my website going to be on an SSD drive?”
Daniel: Yes. If it’s not already listed on their website, which it might well be, it certainly doesn’t hurt to ask that question.
Jon: It does make a difference, doesn’t it? A huge difference.
Daniel: Absolutely. They’re just so much faster than old spinning hard disks that there’s no real reason these days for your website to be hosted on something with spinning disks.
Jon: Let’s move on to RAM because RAM’s a thing. More RAM’s better, yes?
Jon: Even with a little website, a little WordPress website for an accountancy company in Bolton or something with 10 pages and 50 hits a day, you don’t need 16 gigabytes of ram, do you?
Daniel: You don’t. You’re right that more RAM is never going to hurt. Above a certain level, you’re not going to be getting any more benefit, but that rather relies on how the website is built, how the servers are optimized, so server configurations. For instance, you can happily get by on a fairly busy website with just one or two gig of RAM if it’s built well, but depending on what you’re doing, more RAM might be useful. Certainly it’s never going to hurt.
Jon: What will be the average start of amount of RAM?
Daniel: That’s a bit of a how long a piece of string sort of question, I’m afraid. As I say, you can absolutely run a busy website on a correctly configured server in one or two gig of RAM easily enough. That’s really where the service of a knowledgeable host is going to be worthwhile because they’ll be able to put that platform together for you. If you’re building it yourself, you don’t have 20 years of experience of doing it and you might end up doing things less efficiently and effectively needing more RAM to do so.
Jon: I think a better way to rephrase that, I think, is to say what things on a website tend to affect more RAM being needed? Obviously, if you’re getting 10 hits a day compared to 100,000 hits a day, you’re going to need more RAM to cope with 100,000 visitors of your website. That’s obvious, but are there other things that a website does that may affect how much RAM it needs?
Daniel: Yes. Anything very heavily database driven. We might be talking running a CMS such as WordPress or Joomla or Magento or something like that. If you’ve written something custom that’s doing lots of complicated database lookups to put together, it could be travel directions or anything that’s doing a lot of intensive database work, that’s going to tend to use more RAM. Again, subject to being optimized, there’s always a bit of a caveat, I’m afraid. I’d love to be able to give you just clear cut answers, but there’s always the caveat of if things are built correctly then you can use far less RAM without sacrificing any performance.
Jon: Let’s move on to cores, computer cores. This is where it just goes over my head completely because anything inside a computer is just, “Can’t be bothered with that.” The number of cores of a– what is it? A CPU, the thingy, dual core, quad core. I’ve got 12 cores available for my website. What does all that actually mean?
Daniel: The cores are effectively how many processors are available for doing the work of running your website. If you imagine one person hits your website, and the processor has to understand what they’re asking for, read some data and send it back to them. If you’ve got, let’s say, 16 cores, which is 16 processors, that can happen 16 times at once.
Which seems like if I’ve got 16 people using my website at once, I need 16 cores, but it’s not that simple because that work takes a tiny, tiny fraction of a second. If you only have one core and those 16 people arrive at the same time, they’re not going to arrive at exactly the same time, that work will still be done in a tiny fraction of a second by a single core.
Again, like RAM, you can’t have too many, you’re never going to suffer from having too many cores, BUT there’s no point in having vastly more than those that you need to actually get the work done.
Jon: What’s the base, what’s the starting level where we’re going to have a nice, fast website if we’re just say, an accountant with 20, 30, 40 hits a day?
Daniel: One. There’s no need for any more than one at that kind of level. Frankly, even for quite a big website, you can still very easily get by with just a single core.
Jon: Does it make any difference if you got a shop, depending on how busy the shop is? Does a shop use more resources than, say, a about standard WordPress website?
Daniel: Not necessarily. You can run a shop, you could use WeCommerce, which is a WordPress plugin, and you can run a very capable shop through WordPress. Again, as I said, it depends on how many people are using that shop. If you’re getting 10, 20, 30 people a day, even though it might be a sophisticated shop, it’s effectively still quite a small and likely used websites, so a small amount of RAM, single core is going to be plenty for that. Really, when you need more RAM and more cores is when things are getting very busy, and very busy is we’re up into the tens of hundreds of thousands of users.
Jon: Most websites I see get somewhere between, I would say, 50 and 100 hits a day. That’s most websites I come across. For small businesses, because they’re in a niche, they’re selling a plug that fits into a widget at the back of something else. They have their niche audience. They’re not Amazon, they’re not Google, they’re not Facebook or Twitter or something like that. They do only get a small amount of hits and people. When we start needing all these huge amounts of RAM and cores and things, are we actually talking when we get into the thousands of hits a day?
Daniel: Definitely. For a reasonably well coded website, we’re certainly up into the thousands, probably even the tens of thousands before the smallest one or two levels of a VPS are not going to be sufficient.
Jon: Let’s move on to something which is a little bit one of my bugbears as well is PHP. Now PHP is basically the code that’s run in the background. WordPress is built in what’s called PHP. It’s the server side code, the programming language, I suppose, that actually creates web pages and does what you do. When you log into WordPress, it’s this PHP thing, which is actually this code, which is logging you in and keeping it all secured. Would that be a good way of describing it?
Daniel: Yes, that’s exactly right. PHP is a programming language used for building websites.
Jon: There’s lots of different versions of PHP. Now, I still see an awful lot of control panels like Plesk and cPanel and things, and I see a lot of websites that were maybe built 5 years ago, 10 years ago, whenever, they’re still running on PHP 5.6, which I believe was out-of-date at the end of December 2018. Now PHP 7 is here. Is that much quicker than PHP 5.6?
Daniel: Yes. PHP 7 actually came out, unbelievably, in 2015, it’s three years old now. It’s so old that PHP 7, 7.0, is actually end of life and shouldn’t be being used. In PHP 7, they basically rewrote all the internals to run much faster. We’re talking anything from 22 over 100% faster than PHP 5. It’s definitely worth making sure your site’s running on PHP 7. Nowadays that 7.2, that’s the current version.
Jon: It’s something which your web developer, your host, or you do yourself within the control, you have to actually change, isn’t it?
Daniel: Yes, absolutely. Your host will have a default version that they’ll use, that should be 7.2, as I say, that’s the current latest version, but it might be 5.6, it might be 7.1. It could be anything. It could be even older than that. If it’s older than the 5.6, you should be asking some questions. It’s probably 7.2, it should be. If it’s not, you should be asking your web developer or your host if you can update it, lots of them will let you do that with just choose an option from a drop down or just a single click. If they can’t, then again, you should be asking some questions about why you can’t make that upgrade.
Jon: If your website was built in, say, 2010, there is a chance that it could be using an old version of PHP?
Daniel: There absolutely is, you could be running on– I don’t know the dates of all the old releases, but you could be running on 5.2 or something like that, which it shouldn’t be used for all sorts of reasons. It’s no longer supported from a security standpoint. There will be bugs in it that are making your website insecure, it will be slow, it’s a good indicator that the other things on that server probably aren’t being looked after very well. Effectively, you should be using an up-to-date version of PHP.
Jon: Is it something a web host does themselves automatically? If I bought web hosting from X company in 2010 and and I never spoke to you once, and just run the website, would the web host go into the control panel and change it from 5.6 to 7?
Daniel: 5.6 to 7 is a good example, because at that point, the language actually changed a bit. There were some issues with incompatibility. Effectively, the short answer is yes your host should be looking after that, that’s part of them doing their job. They will likely have emailed you to say, “Hey, the version that you are running is now going end of life and is going to be insecure. We are going to update on such and such a date, you need to make sure your code is ready by then.” They might even give you an option to preview it before that or to try it out beforehand. Yes, your host should absolutely be looking after the versions of the software on your server and making sure that they’re up-to-date.
Jon: Okay. If you have a website, if you’re in a marketing department, you have a small business, it’s worth asking the question of your web developer or your hosting company, am I on PHP 7.1 or 7.2?
Daniel: Yes. Those are the two versions that are current. Ideally you want to be on 7.2 because that’s actually the latest version. There isn’t really an excuse for being on an older version than that.
Jon: Again, it is so much faster. As I said earlier, I did this change when I moved everything over to SSD drives, and also put in PHP 7 into everything, and you could visibly see how much quicker the page is loaded on the screen.
Daniel: Yes, absolutely. The work that was done throughout 2014 and 2015 to basically rewrite the internals of PHP made such a difference. As I say, the numbers they were quoting were 20% to 110% speed improvement. That’s for doing nothing on your side, they’ve actually just update some software and suddenly your site might be going one and a half or even twice as fast.
Jon: What would you recommend for the average business then?
Daniel: It depends on that software that you are running. I certainly wouldn’t be recommending shared hosting for any business, it’s a false economy. Yes, it’s slightly cheaper, but if your business can’t stretch to an extra, it’s probably only £5 or £6 a month for an effective web-based shop front, then there’s probably some other decisions you need to be making. What I would be recommending is to talk to a couple of hosts, maybe get a few trials.
It depends on your experience as well, if you’re tech savvy and you’re happy running your own servers, then something like a VPS or a cloud instance is perhaps ideal. In other situations, if you’re maybe not completely tech savvy, you might be looking at something which we will call a managed service where, for instance, we would take care of making sure everything is up-to-date. Maybe around WordPress we’ll be making sure the version of WordPress itself is up-to-date or your plugins are up-to-date, the security is in place.
That everything’s there so you can just focus on what you do, which is running your business, and you can leave someone like us to look after the website for you.
Jon: Is it worth the marketing department, the marketing manager, the business owner, turning around and actually understanding a little bit of these things and knowing that, “Okay, I don’t have to understand what PHP is or what an SSD drive is, but I know number 7 is better than 5.6 and I know an SSD is better than the other,” and say to the web host, “Have I got this stuff actually on my hosting package?”
Daniel: Definitely. Any web host will be perfectly happy to talk to you about that. If there’s any reason why things aren’t being up-to-date, then they’ll be happy to say that, maybe they do some testing before they deploy it. Or if they aren’t managing the updates, they’ll be happy to tell you how to do it. Or if they are doing it, they’ll be ecstatic to tell you, “Don’t worry, we’re taking care of this for you.” There’s certainly no harm in asking your web host about this sort of thing or your web developer. I’ll absolutely encourage everyone to do so.
Jon: Fantastic. Brilliant. Thanks, Daniel. I really appreciate your time. I’ve learned a lot myself and I hope everyone else has. Where can we find you at 34SP. Give us a few web addresses, Twitter things.
Daniel: We like to keep it quite simple. Our website is 34SP.com. We’re, as I said, our web host, have been around for nearly two decades now, particularly these days specializing in WordPress. We are on Twitter @34SP. You can find us on all the other social media platforms if you just search for 34SP. As I say, we like to keep it fairly simple.
Jon: Brilliant. Thanks for your time. Appreciate it.
Daniel: You’re very welcome.